Discussion:
[Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
david bangs
2013-10-25 20:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Trevor.

Speaking to a friend about the low wealden countryside in the '50's and 60's
he reminded me that many road verges and small fragments of waste of the
manor were then still grazed, and hay crops taken unofficially. The graziers
were smallholders and cottagers, farmers and hobby farmers, settled and
itinerant travellers. In the nearly half century since this practice finally
withered (as traffic increased, the lanes were widened and squeezed the
verges, making grazing unsafe on what was left, and as travellers converted
to motor trailers and were driven off commons, wastes and greens) we have
lost the vast majority of our species-rich verges.

In total, Sussex still has a huge area of roadside waste, much of which is
still under grass...but that grass is mostly rank False Oat Grass and coarse
tall herbs, and the percentage which remains of value continues to
shrink...and is now under increased pressure from councils' beleaguered
transport budgets,

Dave Bangs


----- Original Message -----
From: <adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
To: <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:00 PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9


> Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: archaic grasslands unofficial grazing (James, Trevor J.)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:29:38 +0100
> From: "James, Trevor J." <tjj at ceh.ac.uk>
> To: Adastra discussion group <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
> Message-ID:
> <8C33D34D431A974EAEA913101DDA194402A8391D99 at nerckwmbc.ad.nerc.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> For what it's worth, several sites, not just commons, receive this sort of
> unofficial grazing in Hertfordshire, at least one of which (a former
> gravel pit, back-filled and formerly threatened with re-development) is
> only of any interest because of this intermittent, unofficial (and
> frowned-upon) grazing! The problem is getting it properly timed and
> sanctioned.
>
> Trevor James
> ________________________________________
> From: Adastra [adastra-bounces at lists.sxbrc.org.uk] On Behalf Of david
> bangs [dave.bangs at virgin.net]
> Sent: 21 October 2013 23:41
> To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> Subject: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
>
> "Pooving the grais"
>
> Three times recently I?ve come across romany travellers unofficially
> grazing (poove) their horses (grais) on neglected archaic Wealden
> grasslands in middle Sussex and SE Surrey. They say they ?poove the
> grais?. I?ve seen it on two neglected commons, where they keep their
> ponies on plug chains, though a foal was unchained, and once on a meadow
> that is mown but never grazed. This traveller woman and her dad regularly
> lead their horse onto the meadow in the evenings for a good feed up when
> no-one is about.
>
> The travellers can do this because the neglected sites are unfenced, so
> they can easily walk on.
>
> All three of these sites benefit from such grazing...and on one of them it
> is the only management (though the common is lovely...with abundant Pepper
> Saxifrage and Burnet Saxifrage....and some Cut Leaved Bramble with the
> juiciest blackberries !!) The ponies and horses seem contented and secure.
>
> It?s good to know that someone is doing the right thing by these places.
> Does anyone know of any more old grassland sites that benefit from this
> practice ?
>
> I remember a young romany bloke staying on Whitehawk Hill for a bit and
> grazing his pony by his trailer (till the council moved him on). It may
> have been the first time the Hill?s chalk grassland had stock grazing
> since world war two !!
>
> Dave Bangs
>
> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is
> subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents of this
> email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt
> from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored in
> an electronic records management system.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Adastra mailing list
> Adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
> **************************************
dawn nelson
2013-10-25 20:46:57 UTC
Permalink
I can remember lane verges being grazed and hay made from them well into the '80's.?

I have also noticed now though, that even designated special wild flower verges, though they may have delayed cutting or only one cut; don't have the cuttings removed as they should. Also without animals trampling in the seeds into bare patches many will rot or blow away, rather than germinating.
?


Best wishes
Dawn?


>________________________________
> From: david bangs <dave.bangs at virgin.net>
>To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>Sent: Friday, 25 October 2013, 21:18
>Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
>
>
>Thanks Trevor.
>
>Speaking to a friend about the low wealden countryside in the '50's and 60's he reminded me that many road verges and small fragments of waste of the manor were then still grazed, and hay crops taken unofficially. The graziers were smallholders and cottagers, farmers and hobby farmers, settled and itinerant travellers. In the nearly half century since this practice finally withered (as traffic increased, the lanes were widened and squeezed the verges, making grazing unsafe on what was left, and as travellers converted to motor trailers and were driven off commons, wastes and greens) we have lost the vast majority of our species-rich verges.
>
>In total, Sussex still has a huge area of roadside waste, much of which is still under grass...but that grass is mostly rank False Oat Grass and coarse tall herbs, and the percentage which remains of value continues to shrink...and is now under increased pressure from councils' beleaguered transport budgets,
>
>Dave Bangs
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: <adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
>To: <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
>Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:00 PM
>Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
>
>
>> Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
>> adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/adastra_lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> adastra-owner at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>? 1. Re: archaic grasslands unofficial grazing (James, Trevor J.)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:29:38 +0100
>> From: "James, Trevor J." <tjj at ceh.ac.uk>
>> To: Adastra discussion group <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
>> Subject: Re: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
>> Message-ID:
>> <8C33D34D431A974EAEA913101DDA194402A8391D99 at nerckwmbc.ad.nerc.ac.uk>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>>
>> For what it's worth, several sites, not just commons, receive this sort of unofficial grazing in Hertfordshire, at least one of which (a former gravel pit, back-filled and formerly threatened with re-development) is only of any interest because of this intermittent, unofficial (and frowned-upon) grazing!? The problem is getting it properly timed and sanctioned.
>>
>> Trevor James
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Adastra [adastra-bounces at lists.sxbrc.org.uk] On Behalf Of david bangs [dave.bangs at virgin.net]
>> Sent: 21 October 2013 23:41
>> To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>> Subject: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
>>
>> "Pooving the grais"
>>
>> Three times recently I?ve come across romany travellers unofficially grazing (poove) their horses (grais) on neglected archaic Wealden grasslands in middle Sussex and SE Surrey. They say they ?poove the grais?. I?ve seen it on two neglected commons, where they keep their ponies on plug chains, though a foal was unchained, and once on a meadow that is mown but never grazed. This traveller woman and her dad regularly lead their horse onto the meadow in the evenings for a good feed up when no-one is about.
>>
>> The travellers can do this because the neglected sites are unfenced, so they can easily walk on.
>>
>> All three of these sites benefit from such grazing...and on one of them it is the only management (though the common is lovely...with abundant Pepper Saxifrage and Burnet Saxifrage....and some Cut Leaved Bramble with the juiciest blackberries !!) The ponies and horses seem contented and secure.
>>
>> It?s good to know that someone is doing the right thing by these places. Does anyone know of any more old grassland sites that benefit from this practice ?
>>
>> I remember a young romany bloke staying on Whitehawk Hill for a bit and grazing his pony by his trailer (till the council moved him on). It may have been the first time the Hill?s chalk grassland had stock grazing since world war two !!
>>
>> Dave Bangs
>>
>> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents of this email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored in an electronic records management system.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Adastra mailing list
>> Adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra
>> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra-archives
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
>> **************************************
>
>
>
>
>
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James, Trevor J.
2013-10-29 14:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Exactly the same pattern across much of the country, I am afraid, although the 'planned landscapes' of the Midlands and East Anglia, with often very wide road verges, do sometimes still at least get cut properly or are used for hay.

Another interesting aspect of the use of commons was their unofficial use by tinkers and the like. While some of these were the usual scrap iron/mess merchants, we once (1970s-1980s) had some very interesting folk, such as itinerant knife-grinders, who used local commons around Hitchin to live on in tents, where they would cut down and burn a patch or two of scrub each year, and then move on, leaving very little rubbish - just a trampled and small burnt area and a clearing in the encroaching bushes. This had the effect of maintaining open areas in what would otherwise have been a dense scrubland! They were not a problem, but of course, got moved on by the council.

Trevor
________________________________________
From: Adastra [adastra-bounces at lists.sxbrc.org.uk] On Behalf Of david bangs [dave.bangs at virgin.net]
Sent: 25 October 2013 21:18
To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9

Thanks Trevor.

Speaking to a friend about the low wealden countryside in the '50's and 60's
he reminded me that many road verges and small fragments of waste of the
manor were then still grazed, and hay crops taken unofficially. The graziers
were smallholders and cottagers, farmers and hobby farmers, settled and
itinerant travellers. In the nearly half century since this practice finally
withered (as traffic increased, the lanes were widened and squeezed the
verges, making grazing unsafe on what was left, and as travellers converted
to motor trailers and were driven off commons, wastes and greens) we have
lost the vast majority of our species-rich verges.

In total, Sussex still has a huge area of roadside waste, much of which is
still under grass...but that grass is mostly rank False Oat Grass and coarse
tall herbs, and the percentage which remains of value continues to
shrink...and is now under increased pressure from councils' beleaguered
transport budgets,

Dave Bangs


----- Original Message -----
From: <adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
To: <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:00 PM
Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9


> Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
> adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/adastra_lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> adastra-owner at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: archaic grasslands unofficial grazing (James, Trevor J.)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:29:38 +0100
> From: "James, Trevor J." <tjj at ceh.ac.uk>
> To: Adastra discussion group <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
> Message-ID:
> <8C33D34D431A974EAEA913101DDA194402A8391D99 at nerckwmbc.ad.nerc.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> For what it's worth, several sites, not just commons, receive this sort of
> unofficial grazing in Hertfordshire, at least one of which (a former
> gravel pit, back-filled and formerly threatened with re-development) is
> only of any interest because of this intermittent, unofficial (and
> frowned-upon) grazing! The problem is getting it properly timed and
> sanctioned.
>
> Trevor James
> ________________________________________
> From: Adastra [adastra-bounces at lists.sxbrc.org.uk] On Behalf Of david
> bangs [dave.bangs at virgin.net]
> Sent: 21 October 2013 23:41
> To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> Subject: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
>
> "Pooving the grais"
>
> Three times recently I?ve come across romany travellers unofficially
> grazing (poove) their horses (grais) on neglected archaic Wealden
> grasslands in middle Sussex and SE Surrey. They say they ?poove the
> grais?. I?ve seen it on two neglected commons, where they keep their
> ponies on plug chains, though a foal was unchained, and once on a meadow
> that is mown but never grazed. This traveller woman and her dad regularly
> lead their horse onto the meadow in the evenings for a good feed up when
> no-one is about.
>
> The travellers can do this because the neglected sites are unfenced, so
> they can easily walk on.
>
> All three of these sites benefit from such grazing...and on one of them it
> is the only management (though the common is lovely...with abundant Pepper
> Saxifrage and Burnet Saxifrage....and some Cut Leaved Bramble with the
> juiciest blackberries !!) The ponies and horses seem contented and secure.
>
> It?s good to know that someone is doing the right thing by these places.
> Does anyone know of any more old grassland sites that benefit from this
> practice ?
>
> I remember a young romany bloke staying on Whitehawk Hill for a bit and
> grazing his pony by his trailer (till the council moved him on). It may
> have been the first time the Hill?s chalk grassland had stock grazing
> since world war two !!
>
> Dave Bangs
>
> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is
> subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents of this
> email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt
> from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored in
> an electronic records management system.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Adastra mailing list
> Adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra
> http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra-archives
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
> **************************************



This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents of this email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored in an electronic records management system.
Glynn Jones
2013-10-30 15:55:34 UTC
Permalink
I assume you are all familiar with Peter Branon's "The Kent and Sussex
Weald" pg 45 onward, where he talks about Seasonal Settlement and explains
the origin of many of these linear commons or wide verges.

When I worked for the NT we held the Lordships of a couple of Manors and
were responsible for the Commons and the Wastes. I had to arrange for
mowing of large areas of grass alongside the old transhumance routes and
for the health of trees that had colonised them. I never moved on any
travellers though and, unfortunately, was not able to arrange any grazing.
It did happen occasionally if the nearby residents had goats or horses.


On 29 October 2013 14:39, James, Trevor J. <tjj at ceh.ac.uk> wrote:

> Exactly the same pattern across much of the country, I am afraid, although
> the 'planned landscapes' of the Midlands and East Anglia, with often very
> wide road verges, do sometimes still at least get cut properly or are used
> for hay.
>
> Another interesting aspect of the use of commons was their unofficial use
> by tinkers and the like. While some of these were the usual scrap iron/mess
> merchants, we once (1970s-1980s) had some very interesting folk, such as
> itinerant knife-grinders, who used local commons around Hitchin to live on
> in tents, where they would cut down and burn a patch or two of scrub each
> year, and then move on, leaving very little rubbish - just a trampled and
> small burnt area and a clearing in the encroaching bushes. This had the
> effect of maintaining open areas in what would otherwise have been a dense
> scrubland! They were not a problem, but of course, got moved on by the
> council.
>
> Trevor
> ________________________________________
> From: Adastra [adastra-bounces at lists.sxbrc.org.uk] On Behalf Of david
> bangs [dave.bangs at virgin.net]
> Sent: 25 October 2013 21:18
> To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [Adastra] Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
>
> Thanks Trevor.
>
> Speaking to a friend about the low wealden countryside in the '50's and
> 60's
> he reminded me that many road verges and small fragments of waste of the
> manor were then still grazed, and hay crops taken unofficially. The
> graziers
> were smallholders and cottagers, farmers and hobby farmers, settled and
> itinerant travellers. In the nearly half century since this practice
> finally
> withered (as traffic increased, the lanes were widened and squeezed the
> verges, making grazing unsafe on what was left, and as travellers converted
> to motor trailers and were driven off commons, wastes and greens) we have
> lost the vast majority of our species-rich verges.
>
> In total, Sussex still has a huge area of roadside waste, much of which is
> still under grass...but that grass is mostly rank False Oat Grass and
> coarse
> tall herbs, and the percentage which remains of value continues to
> shrink...and is now under increased pressure from councils' beleaguered
> transport budgets,
>
> Dave Bangs
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
> To: <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 12:00 PM
> Subject: Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
>
>
> > Send Adastra mailing list submissions to
> > adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/adastra_lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > adastra-request at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > adastra-owner at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Adastra digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: archaic grasslands unofficial grazing (James, Trevor J.)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 12:29:38 +0100
> > From: "James, Trevor J." <tjj at ceh.ac.uk>
> > To: Adastra discussion group <adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
> > Message-ID:
> > <8C33D34D431A974EAEA913101DDA194402A8391D99 at nerckwmbc.ad.nerc.ac.uk>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> >
> > For what it's worth, several sites, not just commons, receive this sort
> of
> > unofficial grazing in Hertfordshire, at least one of which (a former
> > gravel pit, back-filled and formerly threatened with re-development) is
> > only of any interest because of this intermittent, unofficial (and
> > frowned-upon) grazing! The problem is getting it properly timed and
> > sanctioned.
> >
> > Trevor James
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Adastra [adastra-bounces at lists.sxbrc.org.uk] On Behalf Of david
> > bangs [dave.bangs at virgin.net]
> > Sent: 21 October 2013 23:41
> > To: adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> > Subject: [Adastra] archaic grasslands unofficial grazing
> >
> > "Pooving the grais"
> >
> > Three times recently I?ve come across romany travellers unofficially
> > grazing (poove) their horses (grais) on neglected archaic Wealden
> > grasslands in middle Sussex and SE Surrey. They say they ?poove the
> > grais?. I?ve seen it on two neglected commons, where they keep their
> > ponies on plug chains, though a foal was unchained, and once on a meadow
> > that is mown but never grazed. This traveller woman and her dad regularly
> > lead their horse onto the meadow in the evenings for a good feed up when
> > no-one is about.
> >
> > The travellers can do this because the neglected sites are unfenced, so
> > they can easily walk on.
> >
> > All three of these sites benefit from such grazing...and on one of them
> it
> > is the only management (though the common is lovely...with abundant
> Pepper
> > Saxifrage and Burnet Saxifrage....and some Cut Leaved Bramble with the
> > juiciest blackberries !!) The ponies and horses seem contented and
> secure.
> >
> > It?s good to know that someone is doing the right thing by these places.
> > Does anyone know of any more old grassland sites that benefit from this
> > practice ?
> >
> > I remember a young romany bloke staying on Whitehawk Hill for a bit and
> > grazing his pony by his trailer (till the council moved him on). It may
> > have been the first time the Hill?s chalk grassland had stock grazing
> > since world war two !!
> >
> > Dave Bangs
> >
> > This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is
> > subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents of this
> > email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt
> > from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored
> in
> > an electronic records management system.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Adastra mailing list
> > Adastra at lists.sxbrc.org.uk
> > http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra
> > http://lists.sxbrc.org.uk/adastra-archives
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Adastra Digest, Vol 89, Issue 9
> > **************************************
>
>
>
> This message (and any attachments) is for the recipient only. NERC is
> subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the contents of this
> email and any reply you make may be disclosed by NERC unless it is exempt
> from release under the Act. Any material supplied to NERC may be stored in
> an electronic records management system.
>
>


--
*Glynn Jones*
*Please note the change of email address*
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